None of that explains why people who dislike it can’t just not watch it instead of hoping to get it taken off TV forever.The change of gender may seem “unnecessary” for you, but there are quite a few of us who would like to see a WOC in a role traditionally played by a white guy. And why not? idk how much American TV you watch, but this happening? Her getting that role over yet another white cisgendered man? It’s not normal. It’s exceptional. Honestly, let’s just imagine that CBS does more things right than wrong. This is an optimistic thought, but it might. Then we get a). awesome platonic male/female relationship b). Lucy Liu being amazing and c). another Sherlock Holmes adaptation to watch while Sherlock isn’t airing (if you want! You don’t have to like a thing personally to not try and take it away from everyone else). Either way, Sherlock itself will be unchanged and unharmed.
Your comments about Sherlock being out of character (in a three-minute trailer) seem to stem directly from the BBC version. “Talks too slow” sounds like you’re basing his portrayal directly off of Benedict’s, and seeing as the BBC is being very protective of their own version, don’t you think there would be much more backlash should the guy act like Benedict’s Sherlock?
You’re betting on the CBS doing everything wrong. Fair enough. It’s not the best programming I’ve ever seen. But you don’t know that, and no one will ever know if the fandom gangs up and actively tries to destroy it. Which sucks, because how much do you want to bet that the message the execs get isn’t going to be “don’t mess with Sherlock Holmes canon,” it’ll be “American TV’s not ready for a WOC in a prominent role.”
For the last time, I’m not asking that people love this show. I’m asking they don’t work against it. It’s not fair to the rest of us.
What is unfair is that you’re asking us to shut up and not express our opinion. We have as much right to hate it out loud as you have to hate us for hating it.
Yes, I AM betting CBS will do it wrong, because the trailer suggests so. Sherlock talking fast? It’s not BBC interpretation, it’s canon. RDJ does the same thing in the movies, noticed that? And while that may be minor, the part where he was not happy to see a corpse was very, very much out of character. And not because of BBC. Because of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.
As far as woman of colour goes - no problem, I’m all for it. The following, however, may come from me not being American - but putting a WOC as John Watson is forced. Why not make a completely new show and put her there? Probably because there’s a myriad already. I’m all for equality of race, gender, sexuality and whatnot, but come on. Why not make Holmes a woman as well? Because then it would be dangerously close to lesbian romance?
And, as meltingpenguins pointed out, the show is made primarily to counter and - yes - mock the BBC adaptation. Things are going to be done in a way condradicting “Sherlock” just to spite the makers and the fans. Problem is, “Sherlock”, while being modern, is exceptionally and astonishingly in character and keeping canon.
This is precisely why I’m afraid CBS will just botch it up.
And, again, I have a right to say this out loud.
Okay. I think we’re not meeting the argument in the middle here. I’m not trying to attack you or your opinions, so I’m sorry if I gave that impression.
My argument is not “shut up.”
Hey guys? If you have time, could you “like” the Elementary trailer?
Even if you’re not in any related fandoms.
I’m talking to BBC Sherlock fans, too.
Look, it’s really uncool to try and make this thing flop before you see more than a three-minute clip. No matter why they made it, or when, it’s obviously going to be pretty dissimilar to the BBC version (which is making people complain, for some reason? Even though copying the BBC characterization and look would be met with equal or greater resistance? idek)
This is my act of goodwill, as a BBC Sherlock fan and a potential Elementary fan. You can like two things at once, for different reasons! You can like them for the same reasons! You can totally avoid one thing because you absolutely loathe it while not actively trying to destroy it for the people who might like it!
You can stop flooding the tag with hate so people can get to nice graphics!okay one step at a time hereI could get into how great it is that a WOC has a great role for once, and how there are literally hundreds of other adaptations, including modern ones (and future ones and one where they are mice and an anime featuring Holmes as a little girl) and how this one is no worse. How it’s not actually erasing textual queerness because no matter how great the fanfic was, no matter how much it teased, BBC Sherlock itself was never queer. It “no-homo’d” all over the place pretty bad, in fact. And even if you disagree with me there, we will get to keep the BBC fanfic! We will get to keep the show! Nothing will change, except there will also be a show featuring Lucy Liu kicking ass that is totally unrelated to the BBC version!
So please. Take the olive branch, Sherlock tag. Let this thing have a chance to find its feet instead of raving all over it like a pack of wolves who like to say “WRONG” and “ANDERSON DID IT” a lot. It’s going to make the fandom look a lot better in the long run, instead of becoming “that one fandom that killed another one out of pure malice.”
I took the freedom to put the problem with this into bold italics.
The things is that ‘Elementary’ IS a big FU towards the BBC show. You know the backstory? How CBS originally wanted to make an americanized version of ‘Sherlock’, Moffat and Gatiss said no and then the CBS found there’s actually no copyright on the works of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle anymore so they went ‘FU Motiss, we do not need ur OK, faggots, we will make a totally awesome american version of this stupid english book’ (wording exagarated for dramatic purpose).
The show lost when the CBS took that step.
Most of the show is a mockery of ‘Sherlock’, which is a pity. We have seen the role describtions, we have seen stills.
There are some nice visuals, but as things stand the show will end up 60% Take that’s towards Sherlock, 40% standard american crimeshow like Law&Order or even CSI.
The problem some of us - including me - with “Elementary” is that the change of Watson’s gender seems unnecessary.
Whether you believe Sherlock Holmes and John Watson were gay for each other or not is another thing entirely, although it’s no secret that Sir Doyle was all for gay rights even back in his time, but could not go any further in his writings or he risked his head. Disbelieve it, it’s your right.
The thing is that if we swap John to Joan, it automatically suggests the romance will be there and it will be explicit. And that, in turn, takes away a whole lot of plot, at least in my eyes. The BBC series, as well as the movies featuring Robert Downey Jr. have shown that Sherlock’s admiration for Watson (be it friendship or romantic) is very important in his characterization, and gets even more important once Watson gets married. And don’t for one second think the original writings didn’t feature this.
But CBS will not feature this. It will, I’m betting on it, just make them fall in love with one another and that’s going to be it.
You don’t think that’s gonna happen? Then give me one other good reason for John becoming Joan.
I see none.
EDIT: Also, Sherlock doesn’t seem to be behaving like himself. He talks too slow, for one. Two… “sometimes I hate it when I’m right”? Shouldn’t he be almost literally getting a boner at having a case to solve?
None of that explains why people who dislike it can’t just not watch it instead of hoping to get it taken off TV forever.
The change of gender may seem “unnecessary” for you, but there are quite a few of us who would like to see a WOC in a role traditionally played by a white guy. And why not? idk how much American TV you watch, but this happening? Her getting that role over yet another white cisgendered man? It’s not normal. It’s exceptional. Honestly, let’s just imagine that CBS does more things right than wrong. This is an optimistic thought, but it might. Then we get a). awesome platonic male/female relationship b). Lucy Liu being amazing and c). another Sherlock Holmes adaptation to watch while Sherlock isn’t airing (if you want! You don’t have to like a thing personally to not try and take it away from everyone else). Either way, Sherlock itself will be unchanged and unharmed.
Your comments about Sherlock being out of character (in a three-minute trailer) seem to stem directly from the BBC version. “Talks too slow” sounds like you’re basing his portrayal directly off of Benedict’s, and seeing as the BBC is being very protective of their own version, don’t you think there would be much more backlash should the guy act like Benedict’s Sherlock?
You’re betting on the CBS doing everything wrong. Fair enough. It’s not the best programming I’ve ever seen. But you don’t know that, and no one will ever know if the fandom gangs up and actively tries to destroy it. Which sucks, because how much do you want to bet that the message the execs get isn’t going to be “don’t mess with Sherlock Holmes canon,” it’ll be “American TV’s not ready for a WOC in a prominent role.”
For the last time, I’m not asking that people love this show. I’m asking they don’t work against it. It’s not fair to the rest of us.
Hey guys? If you have time, could you “like” the Elementary trailer?
Even if you’re not in any related fandoms.
I’m talking to BBC Sherlock fans, too.
Look, it’s really uncool to try and make this thing flop before you see more than a…
The thing is, though, I don’t dislike it because I’m a fan of the BBC Sherlock. I’m a fan of the BBC Sherlock because I watch their version and I go: “Hey, yeah, ACD would probably think this was pretty damned good”. I watch it and I feel the novels that I love coming to life in an interesting way. In this Elementary series, just in that three minute trailer, there are so many things that I disagree with purely based off of my adoration for the novels. If you want to call something an adaptation, fine, but then it actually has to be an adaptation, it has to relate to the original work in more ways than just using the names. Watson repulsed by a dead body? Holmes wishing he wasn’t always so smart? That alone is enough for me to be wary.
People need to stop thinking BBC fans are against Elementary just because of the BBC series. Sure, I like BBC, but I also like Jeremy Brett’s version, which I’ll say by far is the closest to the Conan work I’ve ever seen. If Elementary wants the same amount of respect as Sherlock obtained, then they need to actually take the novels, the original stories, the characters that ACD created, and work with them. Not just take their names and go from there.
Sure, I’ll watch the first episode, but am I going to watch more than that? It’s unlikely. After that first one I’ll probably curl up with my novels.
Do I think people should actively hate on Elementary by flaming the tag and ruining it for others? No, I don’t. But I don’t think that people who dislike it should be getting a bad rap either. Remember, not everyone out there is just turning it down because BBC did it first. I mean, I was wary about Sherlock at first. I changed my mind on the matter because they did it well. I’m wary about Elementary because from what I’ve seen, there’s nothing but a couple of names to bring me back to stories I loved.
When Elementary shows me a true Sherlock Holmes that comes from the novels, a John (Joan, whatever her name is) Watson that is a women for an actual reason besides trying to be different and a potential heterosexual relationship, then sure, I’ll support the Hell out of it. But so long as I can’t see ACD’s work coming out of it, then I’m not going to be behind you. You can’t be upset with people for that, as much as you might want to be.
While that’s all perfectly fine and good (nobody can force you to like something! The inclusion of “you can absolutely loathe it” in my rambling was intentional!) the point of this post was never “enjoy this thing or you’re a bad person.”
I do disagree with you that the majority of vehement criticisms directed towards the show aren’t at least in some way colored by the BBC. One quick trip down the Elementary tag (or the comments on the trailer, or the Sherlock tag, or Moffat’s “protect the brand” (???) commentary) is enough to show that. Otherwise very few would take so much time to be angry about it and deliberately try to kill it, they just wouldn’t watch it.
Which is my entire point. There is nothing in this post that was attacking people who dislike it. Please don’t try and read a message of hatred where it isn’t there; I used “olive branch” terminology on purpose too. The purpose of this post itself you seem to agree with: give it a chance, quit flooding the tag, don’t purposefully try to destroy it for other people. By saying “like this trailer” I’m trying avoid the chance that it could be annihilated before we have the chance to see it. It’s all fine! I’d rather you hadn’t reblogged just to set my message up as one of opinion-squashing, but other than that we’re on nearly the same side.
Hey guys? If you have time, could you “like” the Elementary trailer?
Even if you’re not in any related fandoms.
I’m talking to BBC Sherlock fans, too.
Look, it’s really uncool to try and make this thing flop before you see more than a three-minute clip. No matter why they made it, or when, it’s obviously going to be pretty dissimilar to the BBC version (which is making people complain, for some reason? Even though copying the BBC characterization and look would be met with equal or greater resistance? idek)
This is my act of goodwill, as a BBC Sherlock fan and a potential Elementary fan. You can like two things at once, for different reasons! You can like them for the same reasons! You can totally avoid one thing because you absolutely loathe it while not actively trying to destroy it for the people who might like it!
You can stop flooding the tag with hate so people can get to nice graphics!okay one step at a time hereI could get into how great it is that a WOC has a great role for once, and how there are literally hundreds of other adaptations, including modern ones (and future ones and one where they are mice and an anime featuring Holmes as a little girl) and how this one is no worse. How it’s not actually erasing textual queerness because no matter how great the fanfic was, no matter how much it teased, BBC Sherlock itself was never queer. It “no-homo’d” all over the place pretty bad, in fact. And even if you disagree with me there, we will get to keep the BBC fanfic! We will get to keep the show! Nothing will change, except there will also be a show featuring Lucy Liu kicking ass that is totally unrelated to the BBC version!
So please. Take the olive branch, Sherlock tag. Let this thing have a chance to find its feet instead of raving all over it like a pack of wolves who like to say “WRONG” and “ANDERSON DID IT” a lot. It’s going to make the fandom look a lot better in the long run, instead of becoming “that one fandom that killed another one out of pure malice.”
I took the freedom to put the problem with this into bold italics.
The things is that ‘Elementary’ IS a big FU towards the BBC show. You know the backstory? How CBS originally wanted to make an americanized version of ‘Sherlock’, Moffat and Gatiss said no and then the CBS found there’s actually no copyright on the works of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle anymore so they went ‘FU Motiss, we do not need ur OK, [slur redacted], we will make a totally awesome american version of this stupid english book’ (wording exagarated for dramatic purpose).
The show lost when the CBS took that step.
Most of the show is a mockery of ‘Sherlock’, which is a pity. We have seen the role describtions, we have seen stills.
There are some nice visuals, but as things stand the show will end up 60% Take that’s towards Sherlock, 40% standard american crimeshow like Law&Order or even CSI.
So apparently Elementary is a “mockery” because it’s totally copying BBC Sherlock AND because it has to gall to be different from BBC Sherlock at the same time?
And yeah, the background history re: CBS’s approaching Moffat and Gatiss is sketchy. But from what little we’ve seen, Elementary seems really different from BBC Sherlock? (And those differences are pissing people off as much as the similarities are…also pissing people off?) They’re both basically modern AU Sherlock Holmes fanfics, but they’re not identical. CBS is hardly snatching the script right out of Moff’s hands and rushing off to Kinko’s.
Here’s the thing: Sherlock Holmes is in the public domain. Has been FOR A WHILE. Anyone can do what they like with it and nearly everyone fucking has. Steven Moffat doesn’t own Sherlock Holmes—the BBC version is his, but that doesn’t mean he has reign over every single adaption ever to come after it and it doesn’t mean he’s the final godly word on all Holmesian things. Sherlock Holmes has been beaten to death and straight into brain-eating undead status in terms of adaptions. They aren’t new! Even modern ones! Even American ones!
Most of the show is a mockery of ‘Sherlock’, which is a pity. We have seen the role describtions, we have seen stills.
But what we haven’t seen is THE ACTUAL SHOW. BECAUSE IT HASN’T AIRED YET. Isn’t it a little presumptive to denounce it entirely when all we have are a few minutes of footage and some out-of-context photos?
A note: I’m not saying people shouldn’t worry about how things are going to go down in Elementary. They should! There’s plenty to worry about, like how things might go unbearably pear-shaped in terms of sexism, racism, etc.! (I LOVE WATSON BEING A WOC but god, the writing could fuck this marvelous opportunity up so bad. I’m terrified and excited because I want for it to be good, like REALLY EXCELLENTLY GOOD, so so so much.) But it’s ridiculous to call the whole thing some sort of Holmesian abomination when we haven’t even seen the pilot yet.
^^^^
and I’d just like to add, this kind of “competition” is what makes shows good. BBC made a modern-day Sherlock adaptation and it was a success, so now CBS is like, okay, let’s see what we can do with it. THAT’S GOOD. THAT IS A GOOD THING. Because now that CBS is pushing their adaptation, that’s a push for BBC Sherlock to step up their game.
BBC Sherlock says, okay, we’re going to take Holmes and modernize it, and CBS says, okay, we see your modern adaptation, and we’ll raise you one - America! gender bending! WOC representation!! They’re taking it one step further, and maybe that’ll encourage BBC Sherlock to try pushing the envelope a little, because for all its modernization it’s still pretty stuck in the same old Victorian themes of “Everyone Important Is A White Dude” and “Women and POC Make Awesome One-Episode Villains”!!!
ok this is kind of rambly but I think my main point is getting to be that it’s utterly stupid to criticize Elementary for not rigidly adhering to the source material. An adaptation is supposed to bring something new to the table. And regardless of whether it’s a better show, Elementary is certainly breaking more ground than Sherlock.
There’s been some interesting discussion going on in the reblogs so I’m just bringing some of it to the forefront
Even if you’re not in any related fandoms.
I’m talking to BBC Sherlock fans, too.
Look, it’s really uncool to try and make this thing flop before you see more than a three-minute clip. No matter why they made it, or when, it’s obviously going to be pretty dissimilar to the BBC version (which is making people complain, for some reason? Even though copying the BBC characterization and look would be met with equal or greater resistance? idek)
This is my act of goodwill, as a BBC Sherlock fan and a potential Elementary fan. You can like two things at once, for different reasons! You can like them for the same reasons! You can totally avoid one thing because you absolutely loathe it while not actively trying to destroy it for the people who might like it!
You can stop flooding the tag with hate so people can get to nice graphics!okay one step at a time hereI could get into how great it is that a WOC has a great role for once, and how there are literally hundreds of other adaptations, including modern ones (and future ones and one where they are mice and an anime featuring Holmes as a little girl) and how this one is no worse. How it’s not actually erasing textual queerness because no matter how great the fanfic was, no matter how much it teased, BBC Sherlock itself was never queer. It “no-homo’d” all over the place pretty bad, in fact. And even if you disagree with me there, we will get to keep the BBC fanfic! We will get to keep the show! Nothing will change, except there will also be a show featuring Lucy Liu kicking ass that is totally unrelated to the BBC version!
So please. Take the olive branch, Sherlock tag. Let this thing have a chance to find its feet instead of raving all over it like a pack of wolves who like to say “WRONG” and “ANDERSON DID IT” a lot. It’s going to make the fandom look a lot better in the long run, instead of becoming “that one fandom that killed another one out of pure malice.”
Please reblog!!
One more time for the night crowd and then I promise I’ll shut up
Feeling the need to check is getting depressing anyway because then that leads to me reading the comments
dinosauriaawesome asked: Hi, as someone who's super excited about Elementary, can I just say a big THANK YOU for your post asking people to like Elementary? It was super awesome of you to do that. :)
Oh, thank you so much! It just occurred to me that I’ve spoken to so many fans who have been rational about this, but apparently were not being heard. It seemed logical to start a drive of some kind!
Even if you’re not in any related fandoms.
I’m talking to BBC Sherlock fans, too.
Look, it’s really uncool to try and make this thing flop before you see more than a three-minute clip. No matter why they made it, or when, it’s obviously going to be pretty dissimilar to the BBC version (which is making people complain, for some reason? Even though copying the BBC characterization and look would be met with equal or greater resistance? idek)
This is my act of goodwill, as a BBC Sherlock fan and a potential Elementary fan. You can like two things at once, for different reasons! You can like them for the same reasons! You can totally avoid one thing because you absolutely loathe it while not actively trying to destroy it for the people who might like it! You can stop flooding the tag with hate so people can get to nice graphics! okay one step at a time here
I could get into how great it is that a WOC has a great role for once, and how there are literally hundreds of other adaptations, including modern ones (and future ones and one where they are mice and an anime featuring Holmes as a little girl) and how this one is no worse. How it’s not actually erasing textual queerness because no matter how great the fanfic was, no matter how much it teased, BBC Sherlock itself was never queer. It “no-homo’d” all over the place pretty bad, in fact. And even if you disagree with me there, we will get to keep the BBC fanfic! We will get to keep the show! Nothing will change, except there will also be a show featuring Lucy Liu kicking ass that is totally unrelated to the BBC version!
So please. Take the olive branch, Sherlock tag. Let this thing have a chance to find its feet instead of raving all over it like a pack of wolves who like to say “WRONG” and “ANDERSON DID IT” a lot. It’s going to make the fandom look a lot better in the long run, instead of becoming “that one fandom that killed another one out of pure malice.”
Please reblog!!
